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Are we going in or staying out?
Going in? via ground ladders? concerns?
Staying out?
How about just the basic RECEO and don't forget the V?
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12 comments:
Looking at the picture it looks like the fire traveled up the exterior into the soffit. The fire looks contain to the attic and there is no reason why you couldn't go to the top floor, pull the ceiling, and attack the fire from below. I wouldn't expect to find HVAC or hot waters heater in the attic space due to the type of structure. If concerned go to the left of the fire and pull the ceiling from the unburned side and attack from there.
I would think that due to the extent of fire coming through the roof, that the top floor has been compromised. If it has not, it will be prior to the first line making the floor thus exponentially reducing the survivability on that floor with each second that passes. Seeing the other side might reveal other options but the initial efforts would need to be the middle floor and basement for victims while a large caliber stream is established to confine to the fire to the building of origin.
Simultaneously, first alarm resources need to be deployed to the most sever exposure (looks to be Side David(Left-picture is of the rear I think)--Since this is part of the original building and Side Baker most likely has a fire wall that might buy some time) to get in the attic and top floor immediately. The Wind is also pushing the fire to the David
The need to enter the second floor is diminished drastically by the time frame and value added should a report indicate everyone is out.
Looks as if this is a view from side Charlie. Fire has complete control of the attic and is being driven by some wind towards the David Exposure. The Baker Exposure possibly has an offset firewall. Initial efforts depend upon reports of victims or if a report of everyone out is given.
By the time an attack line from the first engine is in place on the second floor, collapse will have occurred or will occur shortly so the risk benefit analysis would say that only a first floor and basement search would be appropriate. This is also somewhat dependant upon the view of Side Adam.
The next priority would have to be the most significant exposure from units off the first alarm.
To be sure--we are going to loose the top floor of this unit. The survivability is diminished by a number of other factors outside our control and rescue/search of the top floor MUST be undertaken in the most obvious of rescue opportunities (People visible in windows)
V for vent? Could anyone vent this more effectively?
The window treatments and glass are untouched on all floors; indications that, while there could be some fire on the top floor, conditions should be tennable with the largest hazard to us being from a potential collapse of the roof assembly (though partition walls will provide some protection from falling materials and the volume of materials is decreasing exponentially with each passing minute).
In fact the interior conditions, as assessed from the exterior, are such that an occupant could easily be inside and unaware of the fire.
Attack from top floor or from side D (view from side C) keeping in mind that wide fog will NOT be the most effective as the space is no longer closed (need to get the nozzle/stream directly onto the burning materials).
Timely deployment of a handline and proper application of water ONTO the burning material can extinguish this fire in short order. Second line goes to the side D attic.
jleverett,
I disagree with you. By quickly getting to the 3rd floor interior and putting the fire out from below, should stop the fire from spreading to the exposures. The 3rd engine should be able to stretch a line to the exposure and keep it from spreading. The windows on the 3rd floor of the fire unit show no signs that the fire has entered the 3rd floor. After a complete lap is done and the other side shows the same picture as side "Charlie", go in and put the fire out. I don't think we should write the entire townhouse off just because the attic is off. The fire has vented out the roof where it should be.
I agree exposure protection is important but so is the preservation of property in the townhouse that is on fire. This fire should be under control within minutes of arrival. I don't see any indication the it will totally collapse and fighting from below to me would be the choice of attack.
jleverett,
I disagree with you. By quickly getting to the 3rd floor interior and putting the fire out from below, should stop the fire from spreading to the exposures. The 3rd engine should be able to stretch a line to the exposure and keep it from spreading. The windows on the 3rd floor of the fire unit show no signs that the fire has entered the 3rd floor. After a complete lap is done and the other side shows the same picture as side "Charlie", go in and put the fire out. I don't think we should write the entire townhouse off just because the attic is off. The fire has vented out the roof where it should be.
I agree exposure protection is important but so is the preservation of property in the townhouse that is on fire. This fire should be under control within minutes of arrival. I don't see any indication the it will totally collapse and fighting from below to me would be the choice of attack.
Great site 5th Bat.
This pic is cut off on the bottom, and both sides so we don't have the whole story. Perhaps that's intentional?
I'm guessing it's a 3 story Garden Apt. Stairs are interior access just to the right of the tree?
Exposure B has no shingles on the roof. Some sort of construction or roof replacement underway there.
Also, we can't see what started the fire in the first place but the exterior siding looks to have burned itself out. How long has this thing been cooking?
At the moment the 3rd floor is probably tenable, but the light weight wood truss is going to fail very soon. A cautious interior attack from the stairwell on the D side might provide enough time for a quick primary search of the 3rd floor with hand line protection. This would also provide some protection and a better primary escape route for crews than ground ladders.
As previously stated, pulling ceiling and attacking from below would be the safest interior attack.
Relying on reports of trapped victims leaves the possibility of not conducting a search when we should have or vice versa. If the floor is tenable, search it. Floor below and D exposure would be the next priorities for search.
Exterior master streams need to be getting ready as a very possible backup plan.
Photo appears to show side charlie, three story apartment under some kind of renovation (exposure to right of photo has felt down with no 3-tab cover as does area of fire building).
What appears a siding fire into attic vent shows signs it has burned through normally indicating it has been burning for some time.
However, looking closer we know these are not normally high-end appartments. Decking is likely thin (1/4") plywood or OSB with felt paper covering of some portion of fire area. Felt paper being a petrolium based product with very low mass it's easily ignitable, lacking 3-tab cover explains rapid volume build in small area.
Looking at attic vent on involved building shows volume pushed smoke rather than heat pushed (slow's and begins moving horizontally quickly after release) Fire has not advanced to this point which a long burning fire should have before burning through. Color of smoke appears light brown telling us untreated wood structural members are burning but again "volume pushed" only the top vent not the lower roof vents so we can assume much heat is moving up/out with body of fire. If gable vent present on unseen end of building I would expect some volume pushed smoke as well.
Conditions on top floor appear clear in all windows. I would expect to find little or no smoke or heat on top floor. Units in these appartments are normally on the smaller side >1000 sq ft, 2 bedroom with normal compliment of other rooms so the largest truss span is 12-15 feet before a wall supports bottom cord. Risk of catastrophic failure is minimal with this fire at this time.
Accessing top floor, truck crew pulling ceiling from left side (in photo) working right with hose lines working should prove effective. Concur with third engine protecting exposure roof as the felt also exposed here.
Good work RK
Typical apartment fire seen far too often.
Clear day.
Replacement of roof shingles is in process.
Fire has vented through the roof. Additional ventilatin in the area of the fire isn't needed though in adjoining apartments celings need to be pulled.
Low heat will exist in the apartments involved. An early and agressive interior attack may have stopped the fire in the involved attic space. Now there's a balancing act. Get lines inside but don't trust the truss roof.
Ladder the building and get a tower in the air to attempt to cut off the fire. DON"T use the aerial until firefighters are out of the structure. The wind is blowing right to left in the picture-command would be wise to cut it off to the left and protect the exposure to the right.
Larryjenkins 8/a., I could not agree with you more on the need for additional size up and that we should not be in the business of writing off property un-necessarily. However with the amount of involvement in the attic and the fact that failure of the structural members is already apparent, I would much prefer to write off the top floor unless we have clear reports of people trapped and a clear means to get to their exact location (VES). In my opinion apart from those two requirements, the top floor is a complete loss as well as anyone on the floor. Loved the comments from everyone.
jleverett
Just based on this photo, and this photo alone, go in and put the damn fire out. Yes, the attic is well involved, but this is the easiest of all fires to extinguish...from the inside ! Look at the windows..no fire visible there is there ? Get to the top of the stairs, pull some ceiling, stick a line up into the attic space on a medium wide fog, whip it around once or twice, check exposures to make sure they are clear, clean up, go home. Turning this into an outside op is exactly why so many buildings are burning to the ground in Fairfax these days. So the attic truss is comprimised, the rooms are probably no more than 10x10, a little sheet rock isn't going to kill you and the 2x4's aren't all going to come crashing down at once,,if you believe that you haven't been in many fires of consequence. Attack could be made from top floor on the the Adam side of the structure if you're so worried about being knocked unconcious by a piece of wet drywall (I also assume we're looking at side Charlie) You're reading too many books and not fighting enough fire if you think this one should be abandoned. Get some Kahoonas and do what you're being paid for or get another job...you're mommy isn't here anymore !!
Captain Chuck Jacobi, retired
Fairfax County FD 1978-2005
Chuck,
I agree with you entirely. The fire dept. of today has got this we can't go in and get it mentality. I'm all for safety, but that is were experience and knowledge comes in to play. Just my thoughts. Stay Safe!
Steve Hartman, Retired, FXCO
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