Wait this has happened here...
August 11, 2007 - 0219 hours - Village of Green Tree Town Homes11 Park Vallei Lane, Parkside, PA Working Townhouse Fire, Multiple Alarm Fireground Audio:http://www.firegroundaudio.com/audio/Delco/08_11_2007_11_Park_Valley.mp3
First Engine Company arrived with "two story, middle of the row, heavy fire showing first floor". Shortly after that announcement the Engine Officer made this broadcast..."right now I got everybody reported out of the building and I'm checking for exposures"
Before you listen to the audio look at these pictures and answer the following questions based on these series of pictures and the initial Engine Company Officer's size-up.
Initial line placement? Back up lines? Is a search of the fire unit necessary? Search of the exposures? Obiviously there are many questions to ask and we look forward to hearing what you have to say about this incident... view and respond to comments already posted here - comments
Here is an excerpt from Billy Goldfeder with "The Secret List" with this early information:
"Upon arrival at the working fire, one occupant had already jumped out. Several moments later, while searching, Firefighters became trapped following a collapse". (statter911.com)
An excerpt from the 6abc.com news site in Philly, PA -- Crews found heavy flames pouring from the 2 story garden style town homes and immediately went to work battling the blaze as heavy smoke poured from the front of the building. At least 4 units were damaged by smoke and flames. There is no word yet on how many people have been displaced by the fire.
Arriving firefighters made their way into the town homes to see if anyone was trapped inside when something went wrong and two firefighters needed to be pulled from the flames.
Injured in the fire was 20-year-old Dan Brees and 21-year-old Chase Frost. Both are listed in critical condition at Crozier-Chester Medical Center. Frost is suffering from 3rd degree burns on 90-percent of his body.
Arriving firefighters made their way into the town homes to see if anyone was trapped inside when something went wrong and two firefighters needed to be pulled from the flames.
Injured in the fire was 20-year-old Dan Brees and 21-year-old Chase Frost. Both are listed in critical condition at Crozier-Chester Medical Center. Frost is suffering from 3rd degree burns on 90-percent of his body.
After reviewing the pictures and listening to the audio could these serious injuries been prevented?
Our thoughts and prayers go to the families of the injured fire fighters.
14 comments:
I dont think it matters right now what may or may not have been able to be prevented. Chase is one of my best friends and the ONLY thing anyone should be concerned with is praying for him and the others that were injured!!!
It does matter. By learning we can avoid other problems in the future.
Keep up the good work Chief.
Editor's note - The purpose of reviewing these incidents is to review the actions and put ourselves in the "seat" asking the what if questions. Furthermore if reviewing incidents such as these can prevent injuries then this is a huge success. RjK
It is important to study these incidents, however timing is everything.
Right now there is a fire fighter in a burn unit who is fighting for life with 90% burn injuries.
Focus on that for now and let the dust settle a little on this incident before we offer up our opinions of how that department operated.
I don't think the publisher's motive is to criticize the actions of those units. This is for all to learn.
I think its important to discuss this as we also pray for the injured. After looking at the photos and listen to the audio there is a lot to learn from this. Exposure remained unprotected and the question no one answered is should we go in or focus on exposures and evacuate structures. If there were civilians trapped are they viable? CDR
The time to discuss issue is as old as the fire service. The fact is we need to learn and waiting prevents that from happening.
2 Floors well involved and were leading off with an 1.75?
The pictures were taken after the 2nd floor collapsed onto the firefighters. Initially the 1st floor was involved, the fire was darkened down then the collapse occured. That is where the pics begin.
After reviewing the pictures and listening to the audio could these serious injuries been prevented?
Certainly the injuries could have been prevented just like all injuries can be prevented. If we never go inside we lessen our risk of getting hurt. It sounds like these gentlemen were headed in the right direction and we certainly do hope that they find a way to get better.
Looking at the pictures I think that fire is "doable." The fire has vented. It is a free-burning fire in a relatively small area. Of course good hose technique and water application is a must. But I would still stretch a 1.75" line. The only real concern I have is the stairs leading up. There is a good chance that they are compromised.
As far as the search effort, this is definitely a search that ought to be conducted behind the advancing line and not ahead of it.
I was one of the fire fighters who was burned at this call i am the one who was on the knob the pics of the fire are after the fact of the collapse we had the fire knocked when the second floor came down on top of my self and ff frost
i whas hit with the floor and whent to the ground ff frost was right behind me and he was burried under alot of debris. when we i whent in to service there was only fire on the first floor and no signs of any collapse problems. thats all i wanna say about this.
Fire Fighter Daniel J Brees
Parkside Fire Co #1 Delaware county station 45
First let me start off by saying I hope that no one from your fire department ever finds themselves in a similar situation to this because your obvious lack of respect and concern for others is appalling and would be a detriment to the safe and speedy recovery for those involved. I personally know both fire fighters who were critically injured and I am disgusted that you would even consider posing this question to others while both fire fighters are still fighting for recovery. I don’t think that this is an appropriate topic for your training site seeing as how you weren’t at the fire scene and aren’t aware of anything that occurred that night. I have full confidence that any and all actions taken by every firefighter on that fire ground was based on the extensive training, knowledge and skills that all of these guys and girls have because they are held to the highest standard in this county and we would expect nothing less. I think it is ridiculous that you would ask so many questions about this situation and whether it could happen in your county since the information you are presenting is misconstrued. You are only viewing the situation from after all of the firefighters were removed from the scene and en route to the hospital. None of these pictures occurred before the second floor collapsed so I don’t see how you can even ask how this could have been prevented. Unfortunately this was a horrible situation that I don’t believe anyone could have foreseen and I don’t feel that you have any right to question their actions. I some how doubt that if the tables were turned and it was your fire department and your guys involved in this situation you would want everyone else gossiping about why things played out the way they did? I doubt that you would want your fire company under scrutiny especially from a company that was no where near the scene and has no knowledge of what actually went on. I would hope that in the future you make less of an effort to live vicariously through someone else and allow those injured to have a positive atmosphere to recover in. Knowing that fire departments from other areas are doubting them will not help their recovery. So please just realize that your blatant disregard for your fellow firefighters is unnecessary and unappreciated. I think that this time right now should be spent praying for the speedy recovering of both Dan and Chase because their heroic actions are what make us proud to say that there are people in this world who would risk their own lives to save someone else’s.
Renee Swanson
Renee
We learn from the mishaps of incidents such as this. I don’t think that anyone is maliciously attacking the department or the individuals involved. If anything positive can come from such an event it should be lessons learned so to prevent others from finding themselves in similar situations
You can sense the passion in the previous comments written about this incident. From the family and friends concerned for the well being and survival of the members hurt to the fire service members who want to learn from the experience of others.
It is not my intent to place blame, and my thoughts and prayers go out to our fellow members who were hurt and their family and friends as they support their efforts to recover.
I would however, like to address the incident. To answer the question, "Could the injuries have been avoided." I strongly believe the answer is yes.
This is a small 2-story garden apartment, which presents as row, duplexes. The construction type appears to be wood frame with bring veneer.
Looking at the pictures and based on comments, the first floor was fully involved on arrival and the second floor lit off when the interior collapse occured.
With a fully involved first floor, the survival assessment is a zero on the first floor. As well, the intense heat, indicated by black turbulent smoke under pressure indicates temperatures of 1500-1700 degrees on the second floor. This fact indicates a zero survivability on the second floor.
Lets go back to what we learned about Risk vs. Benefits. What are we risking? With a zero survival assessment on the first and second floor, placing firefighters on the interior of a well involved structure would risk firefighter safety and survival for a property that is all but destroyed. Given this, firefighters were not justified in going in initially. The pictures indcate full involvement for the full depth of the structure. The fire appears contained, as there are no signs of smoke or fire in exposure B and D, at least not from the exterior or from the windows. At this point, consideration should have been given to exposure protection and a defensive attack on the fire unit with at least a 2 1/2" handline, deckgun, monitor, etc.
Traditionally, the fire service has been proud of their aggressiveness to go in and get the fire. Its great to hang on to tradition, but don't let tradition get you killed. Times are changing. New technologies cause fires to burn hotter and faster. Building construction components are more lightweight and promote early structural collapse and rapid fire spread. We have to train to continually stay ahead of the hazards. We also have teaching tools in place and must rely on experience to help us determine when to go in and when not to go in. We can now read smoke better than ever, which means we can make educated decisions from the exterior of a building. For example, we used to have to be on the inside of a building and use our body to feel heat, sometimes get burned to determine that a flashover was getting ready to occur. Now we can look at smoke on the exterior to determine trigger points of flashover, backdraft, etc., and to determine interior temperatures and whether a victim would be considered savable or not savable.
It is never too late or too early to learn. For those suffering a loss or injury, discussing the circumstances of the incident may feel too soon, but this is an effective way for firefighters to learn, sometimes it comes at the expense of others. Our goal is to eliminate the expense for others and for ourselves. Waiting is not an option, because in 5 minutes from now, I could be in a similar circumstances as the firefighters that got hurt. Knowing what worked and what did not work for them may save my life and the lives of others.
Gordon Graham, a speaker on Risk Management talks about primed recognition. In simple terms, it is recognizing your brain as a computer hard drive. When you see or experience things in life, you place them on your hard drive. When you see similar circumstances again, you have something on your hard drive that allows you to recall what you did before, what worked, what didn't work. It keeps you safe. When you are faced with a particular circumstance that you have never seen before, you have nothing on your hard drive to recall, which gives you guidance to help you deal with the situation you are faced with. In my department, we planned for WMD incidents for years before September 11, but none of us prepared for a plane into the Pentagon. We now have that experience on our hard drives.
This type of forum, looking at fire ground pictures, reading about incidents and circumstances that went wrong allows us as firefighters the opportunity to place the lessons learned by others on our hard drive. Sure, it wasn't our incident, but by seeing a picture, discussing it or at least knowing the circumstances, we can use it as if it was our own experience.
We owe a debt of gratitude to individuals who get hurt in the line of duty and share their stories, pictures, etc. They are helping us learn and helping us to be safe. Firefighter Close Calls and other sites that provide an opportunity for people to say, "I fucked up or here is a screwed up situation I found myself in," is a great way for all of us to learn and to avoid injury and death.
I am all for open forums and open sharing that allows others to learn from our mistakes.
Be safe.
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